I think anyone looking at this [raft of changes] would say that New Zealand is doing the very best it can, with a small population, to have a very credible defense capability,

That's completely unacceptable, and I don't think there would be New Zealanders who would say that New Zealand should do nothing in the face of another country's agents trying to breach our sovereignty. We have to take a stand on that, regardless who the country is,

Well of course New Zealand isn't anti-American.

Well, we don't think for a moment that either the U.S. or Australia are out to damage the New Zealand economy, but if there were a sustained period in which they had a free-trade agreement and New Zealand didn't have that same arrangement with the States, that could be both trade- and investment-distorting.

In the end, there will always be a fundamental difference of perspective between New Zealand and Australia on defense, whoever is in government.

In terms of having views and being prepared to express them, yes, I think New Zealand's had a leadership role in a lot of things.